The House of Representatives rejected a proposed timetable for pulling the troops out of Iraq by a vote of 256-153...
The Senate also turned down a proposal by Democrat John Kerry calling for withdraw all combat troops from Iraq bu 1 July 2007... The vote there was
86-13...
Some of the statements made by our elected Representatives:
"Stay the course, I don't think so Mr. President. It's time to face the facts," House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California stated. "The war in Iraq has been a mistake. I say, a grotesque mistake."
"The choice for the American people is clear; don't run in the face of danger, victory will be our exit strategy," Rep. Mike Conaway, R-Texas
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., predicted that terrorism would spread around the world, and eventually reach the United States if the United States were to "cut and run" before Iraq can defend itself.
"We must give them that support and not send a signal that we're going to pull possibly the rug out from under them," Sen. John Warner, R-Va.,
Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., said: "It is time to tell the Iraqis that we have done what we can do militarily."
*Thanks to Sacred Cow for the Graphics and NewsMax for the quotes...
50 comments:
That is a great picture.....I wonder if it comes in poster format?
Republicans are the real party of CUT and RUN...
Cut taxes then Run up the deficit!
Anonymous,
Says Cut taxes as a negative thing... Please explain your point. Did you get a taxcut like the rest of us and what did you do with that money that remained in your pocket instead of going to the Govt?
"Run" up the defecit? Yes it is up and I blame the majority of that due to PORK spending by both sides. The President once again asked for the power of line-item veto to cut this pork. Military spending is up for we are fighting a war on terrorism with a military force that went thru massive cuts during the Clinton years...
"Real Patriot"
You had a great question and statement until you used a improper link that I am sure you are aware of... Too bad, we don't play those games here...
Don't you mean cut taxes and watch the economy run?
How on earth can we good, America-lovin', red-blooded, capitalist, Christians tolerate the cut and run plans of General Casey that wants to draw down the troops on a timetable?!
Doesn't this liberal General realize that he is being a traitor, giving aid and comfort to the terrorists, by talking about withdrawing US forces on a timetable...that's what the Dirty Democrats are doing proposing...Bush should fire General Casey immediately!!!
Maybe with the General reporting that it would be possible to remove troops it shows that we are winning over there and that the terrorist are weak. Now it is the time where this President will send a message to them that we will not run due to pressure from the media or because of a "Poll" like we did in Somalia after the "Black Hawk" incident. The key is not to show weakness but to show that we are committed all the way thru...
Nice try...
Actually the Democrats are not proposing a situational based staged drawdown like Casey is. They were proposing a stick your tail between your legs retreat. I think that the church of liberalism must be anti-birth control because all they talk about is pulling out!
Oh no...wrong, wrong...Those darn devil Dems also proposed a non-binding proposal in which Bush would have to give estimates on troop drawdown numbers over the next year, with flexibility for changing circumstances...this is exactly what General Casey said! He is a traitor! How can this General be American when he is talking about drawdowns on an estimated timetable?!?! Just like the Democrats?!?!
How can he not see that this will only give the terrorists reason to sit back and wait us out? Despite the continued violence we see today, if the terrorists know we are talking about significant withdrawl over the next year, they will adjust, stop fighting and wait to take over.
Casey and the Democrats do not understand that we need to stay there forever and fight terrorism so that we don't have to fight here. Forget about the cell in Miami we just broke too. And if we are hit again, just listen to Cheney. He is so honest and great...it will be the fault of those traitors in the media! Without those secrets getting out terrorists would have never, ever conceived that we would tap phones, or shut down bank accounts!
Pass the kool-aid, please. All along the president has said that troop levels will be determined by the generals in the theather of operation. The Murtha-ites want to set arbitrary dates for pull-out regardless of the situation on the ground. And you say it best...estimated timetable....which is how we will have to do things. The military will not be there always and a drawdown will occur when the situation on the ground permits and allows it, not when the Democrats on the hill can fit it into their dayplanners.
The Times AKA Church of Liberalism Daily News Letter should be shut down. It is shameful to do what they did. Yes, it is only logical that some terrorist organizations figgured that we would do things to track them but to give out our mode of operation and methods is treasonist. In old times they would have been burned out! What is next for them? Daily publishing of troop movements? Maybe they could put out the security codes for all the nuclear plants out there? How about publishing random lists of bank accounts and social security numbers? It is a free press huh?
The real culprit is whoever leaked the story. They should be hung from the mast arm.
Bubba, you hit the nail on the head. Thanks for the common-sense response.
It is this press, above all, which wages a positively fanatical and slanderous struggle, tearing down everything which can be regarded as a support of national independence, cultural elevation, and the economic independence of the nation.
I believe what the times did to undermine the program that they even admitted worked, would have been called sedition during WWII. I am sure the laws are still on the books somewhere, anybody want to pull the trigger on that one ??
There was much talk on the radio programs as to what the NY Times did and what should be done. They reported that many people are dropping their subscriptions but that may just be talk of a few. It is evident that most newspapers are in decline and the "Dinosaurs" no longer rule... Our local paper has even included a blog on local issues but at times seem annoyed when they can not control the bloggers with their views...
The Times should be shamed into giving up the person who leaked but the liberal media will not call for that for the Times have been a big attacker of the President...
The truth on this and the WMD's will come out in time and let history record who said what...
The problem here is that the Times is not a person and the laws are designed for people. Much better to just burn them out......I am getting my torch ready!
The legal guys talked about it today and they all said it was a legal program and worked properly. It shows that the times did it just to slam the President once again but this too with come out in the end. Remember the Times reporter that was making up stories and got fired for it?
Journalistic integrity?
I am still gonna get my torch! Maybe we can get the tin foil from the tin foil hat party and use it cook some stuff while the times BURNS......MuHAHHAHAHAHAH!
So you guys going to slam the Wall Street Journal too for also reporting on this? I mean hell, why confine your hate to only one newspaper?
By the way, do you think we will ever hear any justifications of how this hurts our war efforts? I mean the president himself, for many years now, has been quite open about us tracing financial transactions to stop terrorist funding, so really what am I missing here?
Also, can anyone explain why it took like 5 days or so for the administration to get mad enough to say something about this?
Do you define it as "Hate" to say that it was wrong for the Times, WSJ, and LaTimes to publish the info on the leak which exposed the project? I see it as a proper reaction for when these papers chose to expose a legal program that has provided valuable information on terrorist activity for their gain and a form of "Hate" that they have for the President and his administration...
And yes I will say that I believe the Wall Street Journal was wrong to print the information also. Are you surprised at that for the WSJ is suppose to be the paper of old fat rich guys (Republicans) who are in it only for the money? If that is how you feel I believe you do noy know "RightsideVA" at all...
It is a shame for the WSJ Opinion Journal has had and continues to have some great writers. Peggy Noonan is outstanding...
The President has stated all along that we would go after the funding of terrorist but it was the specifics that damaged this operation. The administration has never seemed to snap back right away on many issues or attacks without waiting for the issue to get out there and other facts that follow. The administration has also not commented on recent info about the files and WMD's that have been found just to get credit or a bump in the polls. The WMD issue will take care of it self in time. The info will come out and history will tell the truth. As long as it is not one of those history textbooks used out in California public high schools...
a legal program that has provided valuable information on terrorist activity This is exactly my point what evidence has ever been presented that this is true? The only thing we hear is to "trust us" but never any proof that it is legal. Or any examples of how this program has been damaged. All we get are accusations that exposing them has hurt. Seems to me that providing some substance, rather than talking points would help their case.
Regarding the NSA warrantless phone tapping, we were told specifically to trust them, it's all legal, they always get warrants, and it wasn't doing x, y, z. Only to later find out that was exactly what it is.
The problem is not with stopping terrorism, it is with violating right and checks on power. It seems that the president himself has created these problems by intentionally skirting the law and proceedure, of which is apparent by the history of asking for permission, being denied, then doing it anyway behind the backs of Congress and the courts, only later to claim that he had the right to do so. And further by now crafting legislation.
Do not read me as saying that we shouldn't track terrorists. This is also what these media are doing either—that's another strawman. The concern—of which you should be wary as well—is in secret legislation and unchecked power. This is a real threat to our democracy. And if we are so willing to radically change what our democracy is, then is that not handing the terrorists a victory?
I am glad to hear you add WSJ to your target. It was but a question. I called it "hate" because you have some on this blog talking about using violence and destruction toward these establishments...seems pretty clearly to be hate to me, no matter how you try to justify it. Probably illegal as well.
Zen, your arguments are old and tired. President Bush is using the exact same laws that were in place during the Clinton years. Where were your complaints then? Quit being such a hypocrite.
swac...perhaps you could answer the fundamental question, rather than dodge it...
What backs up the accusation that the New York Times has put American lives at risk by disclosing vital secrets to terrorists?
The best Tony Snow could manage was, "I am absolutely sure they didn't know about SWIFT."
SWIFT was no secret.
So rather than continue in the footsteps of those whom you carry water, please answer the question. Do not dodge, do not make up claims about what Clinton did. Present a case for Bush on it's own merit. Please use facts and evidence.
By the way Rightside...about those WMDs...you may want to refer to what Bush's, hand-picked, weapons inspector David Kay had to say about those recent reports..."about as harmful as the stuff under your kitchen sink" (paraphrased)
WMD...Weapons of Mild Discomfort...in this case. You know how old they are? Wonder when we'll hear where that stuff came from? Since it's the US, I doubt that Bush is chomping at the bit to talk about these either.
How did the UN Inspectors miss these WMD's at the time? Would they have found them if they had been allowed to stay in the country looking for WMD's or would they have been corralled away by Saddam's boys when they got close like his boys did in the past? Maybe they would have found the 12 or so fighter jets that were buried in the sand if the UN would have been allowed. But what would the UN have done if they did find WMD? Another resolution that Saddam did not pay attention to? I agree that the WMD just found was probably from the Iraq\Iran war and was "Weak" as compared to its original form but it did and does exist after Saddam claimed he destroyed his WMD's...
Zen, what part of "We are at war" do you not understand? What part of "Al-Quaida wants to kill us" do you not understand?
You know ... I read what you write on these posts ... and my brain cannot quite wrap around that kind of simple-minded denseness. To me it is the common sense concept of survival: do not reveal your plans to the enemy. The reason I don't respond more to you is because I don't have time to waste on a simpleton when you just won't get it.
During the Revolutionary War the Americans, many who had been formally trained to fight as the British did by facing the enemy and marching forward toward one another with guns blazing, took up guerilla warfare. This was something they learned from the American Indians and other cultures ... tactics that included hiding behind trees or up in trees, ambushing British troops as they marched and rode by on horseback. They got the upper hand in the war by using those common sense tactics of intelligence, espionage, deception, and sabotage.
It's difficult for someone like me to argue the point against someone like you. I don't understand your mentality. We think differently. I think like the colonists. I don't know what you think like.
Treason: Betrayal ... of obedience toward one's government; giving aid and comfort to one's enemies.
Until the Vietnam War treason was taken seriously in this country. It is high time it is taken seriously again. To me the basis of this argument is the fact the Bush White House asked, begged, and pleaded with the New York Times to not print that story.
Freedom of the press does not include getting my family killed ... and Americans need to start demanding that holier-than-thou reporter-types and newspapers pay the price for their arrogance. What about my right to be safe in my country?
We are at war. War. Not conflict, not distraction, not battle. WAR.
As far as WMDs which Zen so dismissively described as "Weapons of Mild Discomfort" ... serin gas is "mild discomfort"? Hussein killed 5,000 of his own people with serin gas. A cult in Japan killed people in the subway with serin gas in 1995.
A press release yesterday announced the discovery of over 500 munitions since 2003 including projectiles packed with mustard and serin gas. There's been barely a whimper from the drive-by media (thanks, Rush -- I love that terminology).
I thought that's what the MSM wanted to see -- they have screamed about the supposed lack of such discoveries -- but instead of praise, liberals have bashed the findings as "nothing significant."
Typical. We wouldn't expect any less of them.
I still say we should burn them out.....That is my first amendment right! BURN BURN BURN. Don't make me use my second amendment rights!
And I don't think many people keep sarin nerve gas under the sink, but mustard gas can be made by combining some common chemicals that might be there. And if you want to see how much "discomfort" that causes do a little research. It ain't fun stuff!
Hate has an appropriate position in the world, but hate should be a learned reaction not a taught one. I have learned to hate some of the establishments out there that do things that are counter productive to what we are doing in the world with the war on terrorism. I also hate cheap perfume, Budweiser Beer, and Liver.
Age also plays very little in the lethality of many things. I remember when a mortar shell left from the War of the States blew the whole second gang off our disk on the farm. I encourage anyone who is gonna make the argument that old nerve gas is not dangerous to belly on up the bar and take a big old swig of the old weak stuff...No takers? Huh? Imagine that....
And if SWIFT was known or not is irrelevant now, because they definitly know about it now.
There will always be secrets and use of power when we are at war or when we are not at war. That is the nature of Govm't. The question at hand is whether or not an individual has the faith in their chosen leaders to do what is right. I firmly believe that Bush has done nothing that is not in the best interests of the US as a whole, be it wire taps, bank monitoring, or locking people on Gitmo until they die. The bigest problem I see is that as a people we have become soft and don't have the stomach for a true war anymore. And it is just that weakness that our enemies plan to use. The democrats are fighting the war on the US front for them and the Press are their special forces.
swac, again you add nothing of substance. It is you that cannot manage a discussion based on evidence and fact, only conjecture.
The president himself has stated many times, over the years that we are monitoring finances to track terrorists...so why is it not disclosing secrets when he does it? Explain the difference.
Of course I don't expect you to because you are so narrow minded and shallow. I am very willing to discuss with you, in a civil way, this or any topic and do so based upon fact, evidence and reality. Yet you do not live in such a world. I have requested repeatedly that you offer something of substance to support your argument. Yet all you do is wave the flag and say "we are at war"...that is beside the point, you lack reason.
Zen, you've gone and proven my point!
You apparently cannot understand the difference between a concept and the details of a concept ... which is the difference between the President saying we're tracking financial records ... and the New York Times actually printing the vivid blueprint details of when, where, who, and how we're tracking financial records. It appears you either have a simple mind ... or a stubborn one.
Try thinking outside that narrow box you're in. I believe you don't get it ... because you don't want to get it.
Enjoy your evening!
ok, I'm with you. Now tell me what details were released that were not already out there.
And you enjoy yours!
Bubba,
Never thought of it that way and I need to look under my sink to see what all is growing down there. Hamas is playing with the idea of using Gas, WMD, etc. with whats going on over in the Gaza strip now. Can only imagine what would happen then and how Israel would respond...
It was pretty evident that we have been tracking the finances of terrorist for sometime now but from what I hear this program has been rendered pretty much useless by whatever info that was released by the Times, WSJ, and the other paper. Exact info? I do not know any specifics but understand what has been reported is substantial to the program. The issue should be that the media has history in hindering the war on terror at times.
When it was reported that we had the ability to track Bin Laden when he used his cell\sat phone he stopped using it... When it was released that we monitor phone calls from terrorist into the United States we keep track of the number called, I am sure that has decreased the number of calls in. Now they know to change their tactics of moving money and finances supporting terrorist... Is there a trend here or is the media just protecting us & the terrorist from the "Evil Bush" administration who has promised to do whatever it can to prevent another terrorist attack to the citizens of the United States?
Today the Supreme court announced that we will not be able to use a form of military trial with the guys in Guantanamo. It has been argued that they must receive the benefits of the Geneva convention. These guys were caught on the battlefield and not in uniform. Check the convention on that fact...
Imagine a large scale terrorist attack in the near future. Chemical, Biological, possible nuclear or dirty bomb at a large sporting event or even numerous attacks at the local supermarkets. Then we find out it was performed by a cell within the United States and we had info this cell was getting phone calls from known terrorist outside the United States. We also find out that we had financial records of this cell getting finance support from known terrorist outside the United States. But we discontinued these programs because they were a little more "Agressive" then some liked and we did not want to offend the world opinion by the way we were fighting terrorism and protecting ourselves... Imagine we knew but did not pursue...
I would not fault Bubba or his tactics if a member of my family was in that sports arena or supermarket...
"Go ahead and push, we will push back harder"...
First of all, how many here have actually read the published stories that we are discussing here? From the sounds of it, you haven't. How odd that rather than inform yourselves, you jump on a bandwagon of talking points to criticise them.
Rightside says: "from what I hear this program has been rendered pretty much useless by whatever info that was released by the Times, WSJ, and the other paper.'
"from what you hear"? From who Rush? Seems he is facing some hard time these days huh? (admit it, that's funny) But seriously he doesn't have any credibility.
I would point you to the fact that the only "detail" released about this program is that the organization named SWIFT out of Belgium was compiling the data. This organization did not exist in secret, has a website, publishes a magazine, and was conducting searches under subpoena. So how has this program been rendered useless?
It is completely absurd to claim that any terrorist would think that we do not listen in on phones or "follow the money" through electronic transfers. Ridiculous. How naïve do you really think they are?
Sometimes I hear the argument that yelling "fire" in a crowded building is not supported by the 1st Amendment. Yet when there is a fire, we are obligated to warn people about it. This justifies the publishing of news that, once again, the government is infringing on our liberties—illegally. The legality is key here, if the admin felt so strongly about these programs then why, over the last 5 years not attempted to legislate to properly protect them? This in itself is an admission that they knew they were dancing in the grey region of the law, and so their objection to the news reports seem more about being caught—again.
Not only are the Zen-libs against national security ... but now the local News Leader is piling on with the Bush administration. Today they say he has abused his power more than any previous administrations.
It alarms me to continue to read that type of trash in the local newspaper. Have those people checked out FDR and the powers he asserted during WW II? I think not ... or they could not make such a statement.
Let me say this once again ... s-l-o-w-l-y for the Zen-libs ... so they will understand:
1) We were attacked on 9/11/01. It was the worst attack on American soil ever.
2) We lost 3,000 innocent lives that day. Where is the outrage now that we are almost five years beyond the carnage?
3) Terrorism against American interests had gone on throughout the Clinton years with little or no response.
4) President Bush told the American people -- and the terrorists: "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." He is sticking with that statement, and the majority of Americans (minus the Zen-libs) are grateful.
5) I again ask: What part of "We are at war" do the Zen-libs not understand? What part of that does the News Leader not understand?
When Rightside says we'll push back harder, count me in as one of those pushing the hardest.
Too bad we have to waste so much time fighting the Zen-libs on the home front ... when we could all put our forces together and fight Muslim terrorists together.
America ... Land of the Free because of the Brave.
I see Zen posted while I was writing my comments ... I have a question for Zen.
What is your job? How do you spend your day?
You are so quick to judge everyone about how much research and reading they do on the news ... when in reality you have no idea that those who post on this site are news junkies and read/research constantly. That's the elitist streak coming out in you again because you're quick to look down your nose at those who disagree with you.
You're quick to put down those of us who listen to Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or other conservative radio programs.
It's obvious Zen is available to a computer throughout the day and late into the evening because of his posts ... from work? From home? Not everyone is fortunate enough to be able blog from their place of business.
So I again ask ... are you willing to share with us what your occupation is, Zen ... and how it is that you are able to blog from work?
I really wonder if the other party was in power if the MSM would spend so much time and effort in "catching" legal uses of grey area of the law? I suspect that it would be a whole different tune being sung. But of course if the Dems/Libs were in power we would just be ignoring the problem like Clinton did.
My question is when does the ability to publish anything get overriddenby national security issues? When does taking a swipe at the administration give way to what is best for the Nation as a whole? I ask what was the upside for the Times/WSJ/LAtimes to pubilish the story vs the damage it did to the program?
And Zen....yes people knew that SWIFT was out there and they might have suspected that we were monitoring it, but now they KNOW for sure 100% that we were/are monitoring it. That is the damage. Imagine the damage that would have been done had the Germans known our plans to invade as far as location and date and force composition. That is the scope of this struggle and many seem to just not get that we are in a serious life or death struggle with Islamic Terrorism.
I don't see why we should pull any punches or limit ourselves in concern with dealing with these guys. If I were in power it would be a scorched earth policy. Fallujia would be a big smoking hole in the ground. The border with Syria would be so dense with air dropped mines that a lizzard would have to tip toe through it. Just think about what they would do here if they had a successful invasion of the US? Imagine what LA would be like under Taliban rule....Scary Huh?
swac—Again you offer nothing of substance. What I do for employment is of no concern to this discussion. I notice this is your preferred tactic—distract rather than stay on topic.
Of course we were attacked, of course national security is important. But you still offer absolutely no evidence or support that these stories have released anything that was not already part of the public record. Probably because you cannot. Instead you resort to distraction and platitudes.
I remain happy and willing to discuss items of substance, but you offer only rhetoric.
Bubba: Pretty similar with you. You only offer conjecture. "What if" is not valid proof of anything.
And as far as how you would handle the war...what then would make us the good guys?
Zen, you offer the same old whine everytime you post.
What you do for employment is of consequence -- you accused those posting here of not reading news reports. I believe your website says you are in communications and media in the Shenandoah Valley. If that is true, research and reading the news is your occupation ... you are paid to do that. The rest of us have jobs that may not allow us to blog, research, and read news reports throughout the day -- it is a hobby in our off hours. That is the relevance of asking that question.
So I ask again: What is your occupation that allows you to blog while on the job? Don't evade the question.
Zen,
I have not seen a whole lot of substance from you here on this topic either. You seem to one again be basing your whole point of view and argument on waiting for someone to present news on topics that have been pretty much silenced. There is no previous "evidence" on how well monitoring SWIFT was working because it was CLASSIFIED. That means that you don't talk about it unless you are in the media and have a source and no sense of urgency to see the war on terror prosecutted to it's fullest potential. Nor should you expect that the administration is gonna come out with a whole bunch of evidence as to what they gleaned before the story broke. The whole thing is kinda like having a secret formula for something. Everyone knows that you have a formula but it is secret so they can only guess what is in it. Same thing here. SWIFT was known before the story but was it known that we were monitoring it? There are other ways to monitor money transfers and banking other than SWIFT. If I had any proof about what they had done before I certainly would not be puting in in any public forum or spewing it for a person in the media.
What whould make us the good guys? Why our white hats of course....
It is WAR. War is a ugly, dirty nasty business with no "winners". War leaves only two groups of people..The Survivors and The Defeated. I choose to be on the surviving side, by what ever means are needed. Remember history is written by the victor. That has been the case in every major war in known history. There are always going to be atrocities and undesirable things happening in a war and unfortunately you and most people in the US do not have the stomach for it. it is not a flaw or failing that you are not capable of wrapping your head around the fact that people have to die when there is a war, it actually is a great honor that our society has progressed to the point that we see the meaning less loss in deaths from war, but unfortunately our enemy does not. The only way that we will comunicate with our enemy is to have them see everything around them and supporting them die. You want proof of that or substance then just read the news. The violence they are using on us speaks to their savage look on life. Suicide bombers, IED's, market bombing, kidnaping and beheading. They have no value for life. That unfortunately is their strength and our weakness.
Did you see where Russia just gave directive to their whole intelligence arm (the old KGB) to find and KILL anyone who helped in the executions of their 4 diplomats? You think they will pull any punches or be wary of public opinion polls? I think not.
Americans are growing war weary over Iraq and that will utimately lead to more calls for pull out and ending the war on terror. We can win this and win it quickly if we will just get over the P.C. stuff and start waging war whole sale. But one again most people don't have the stomach to deal with what must be done.
BTW I don't really care what you do for a living. It is obvious that you spend a lot more time reading the news than most people and I suspect it is part of your job. I do enjoy your perspective on things but I grow very tired of You always bashing Swac or Rightside by taking advantage of the fact that they don't have hours to search the news like I suspect you do.
I signed off the computer and was working in the yard ... and then recalled what Zen wrote to Bubba: And as far as how you would handle the war...what then would make us the good guys?
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I question the patriotism of Zen-libs, Bush-haters, and blame-America-first libs.
But noooo, you can't question my patriotism, they always scream. Just because we don't agree with the President doesn't mean we aren't patriotic.
OK, let's cut to the chase: We ... are ... at ... war. Any red-blooded patriotic American would understand the danger to our country, our families, our leaders ... and fall behind trying to wipe out the enemy and restore our safety.
But we have bleeding-heart liberals who blame the President, blame Republicans, blame conservatives, blame the military, blame conservative talk show hosts, blame conservative bloggers, blame everyone and everything ... except ... the enemy, the Muslim terrorists, those who murdered 3,000 innocent people on 9/11/01.
Zen, you whine for proof? You whine for facts? Let me slam a few facts down your whiny throat.
1) Quit making excuses for the NY Times. Very little was known about the financial tracking of terrorists. Your excuse that it was already known is a smoke screen. The Times wanted to report the ins and outs of our undercover work. They were respectfully asked by various members of the Bush Administration to please refrain from printing information that could be damaging to the fight against terrorism. They refused and, in their arrogance, published classified information that has now put my family in danger. I am outraged! I am ready for the government to go after the NY Times for treason.
2) Tracking those records has produced results the past five years -- results that now will be lost. What results?
- Information was discovered about the July 7 London bombings and, because it was found, other attacks in the planning were avoided. Innocent lives were saved.
- Riduan Isamuddin, who played a key role in al Quaida's 2002 bombing in Bali, was caught.
- Fronts posing as Islamic charities were exposed thus cutting off money to terrorist cells and removing terrorists from the streets.
3) Track my phone records? Check library computers? Hell yes! We are at war! I want the government to do whatever it takes to make us safe and track down the enemy. Did you hear that, Zen? I WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO MAKE US SAFE AND TRACK DOWN THE ENEMY.
Libs are a bunch of Monday-morning quarterbacks. After 9/11 they all screamed about how George W. Bush allowed this country to be attacked, that he should have known about the terrorists because he had been in office all of seven months.
For the past three years everytime the President tries to do anything to protect America the libs are hounding, chopping, constantly criticizing and hateful in their loathing of anything he does.
I am outraged, I am sick of it, and I am tired of the Zen-libs. You are pathetic. You ask Bubba if his way of handling terrorism would make us the good guys? Damn right it would! I'd be in there scorching right along with him and, Zen, I suspect you would be surprised at how many of us lowly little people who don't have your self-perceived journalistic elitist intellectualism would feel the same way.
I have no time to give you more of your facts because I have work to do. Thank God for President Bush and his leadership. I've said it before -- it's nice to have John Wayne in charge of the ranch again. Someone get my .22 ... I've got groundhogs to exterminate!
Bubba ... I've got a match to light that torch....
Hmmm....
a .22 is too small. Please borrow My 30-06. You might just wound that ground hog and then he would just be a ground hog inspirational leader, and a recruiter to get other ground hogs into the underground cell in your fields. Much better to use a BIGGER Gun and splatter the ground hog all over the field where the other ground hogs will see. True a .22 will do it with precision, but sometimes you need grapic, whole sale, unabated destruction to prove a point. Precision strikes while effective just don't send the right WE WILL YOU AND ALL YOUR KIND message.
oops...... left the KILL out of that last part.....go figgure?
Hey Bubba - I like the way you think! "Graphic message speaks louder than precision hit" ... too bad our military can't follow that same advice but, instead, they have their hands tied behind their backs and cannot do their jobs as they've been trained. They are being killed over there because the PC police aka liberals are more concerned about how our troops are operating rather than worrying about the safety of our guys against the enemy.
America, wake up! We need to speak up and speak out! Go ahead, libs - all you do is fire me up to continue to work against you.
God bless our American troops as the 4th of July approaches. Their sacrifice and love of country allow us to have parades, picnics, and fireworks on Tuesday. Say a prayer for them all ... and for our President as he continues to shoulder the resentment and hatred of leftist, MoveOn.org lib-types.
For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
May God bless America. Happy 4th!
I guess you both said a lot there. One of the biggest differences I see between us, is that I am not working "against" you the way you claim to be against me. I wish non of you ill will or defeat. I am attempting to bridge a gap of understanding but have concluded—not from a lack of effort—that expecting to maintain a rational discussion with an irrational person is pretty fruitless.
Again what I do for employment is of no consequence to the discussion. (Was there really any harm in the recent news stories) But as a matter of point I am not in the news business. As it relates to the discussion, I merely asked if anyone here that is slamming the media has actually read the NYT article that set off the firestorm. One article, not hours of research and digging. One.
swac you gave evidence of what the program has accomplished. But not evidence of how this program has been compromised. Please refer to my question, repeatedly stated above.
The rest of your rant is pretty much the same off-topic, misplaced anger that has nothing to do with having civil discussions about anything. You aim to be hurtful and strike personal blows, instead of a civil, on topic discussion.
On a personal note, I find it sad that your ideas to deal with any conflict and problems in the world involve violence—only violence, and lots of it. Be it burning down a newspaper, carpet-bombing entire countries, killing farmland pests, even discussions online, you are prone to exhibit intense emotional instability. It is reactionary, and illustrates a lack of self-control. Curious if you also consider yourselves Christian. And how actual servicemen would respond to your calls for increased violence. I'm sure you'll tell me—at least one side of the story.
I know you'll consider that some "elitist" BS that you'll easily ignore and probably even take pride in your acts of desired violence. But I would hope that some day you understand that there are many alternatives to dealing with conflict and disagreement (diplomacy). Of course overwhelming force and violence is on one side of the scale, doing nothing is on the other, but in between there are a range of other options. Very few things in this life are black or white.
I'd like you to believe that I do understand that we must fight the bad guys. I just don't feel the need to declare it with every breath. I would assume that was understood, but it seems not. I do understand that we should track finances, and we should even trace phone calls. Yes surprise, I'm sure based on your assumptions of me. And yes they are assumptions, because I've never said otherwise. I speak for myself, and not anyone else. Nor does anyone else speak for me. So it truly astounds me when swac not only claims to know what is in my mind and heart, but also thinks I am the voice for others, or they for me. I aim to take you guys for your word, and you would perhaps understand me better if you took me at mine. Though I know that's a lot to ask as the assumptions, allegations and accusations heaped upon me would fall flat if you were to fulfill this one simple request.
You can believe it or not, but I have no hate or anger toward the president or this country. I can seperate the issues from the person. I fail at times, but attempt to keep seperate our topics and issues discussed here, and any opinion of you personally. I do not take anything you say personally. It's more a reflection of your reality than about me. Some friendly advice.
That's really all I have for now, but may return to these thoughts later. I honestly wish you all well, and a joyous weekend and reflective Independece Day.
Zen wrote, swac you gave evidence of what the program has accomplished. But not evidence of how this program has been compromised.
Oh come on! You can not be that dense. Evidence of how the program has been compromised? Refer to evidence of what the program has accomplished and you will see what will not be accomplished in the future. It's as simple as reading what I wrote one ... more ... time.
That's why it's a waste of time to respond to you ... even when you are handed information you still don't see it.
You sound like the typical "Can't we all get along" lib. Well, no, we can't because we think differently. You've proven it over and over.
Perfect point: Say, for example, the terrorists arrive on American soil. Zen-libs would step forward with extended hand to welcome them ... and to see how they could protect their "rights" now that they're within U.S. borders. That would last just about as long as it took the sword blade to reach lib necks and lob off lib heads ... and the rampage would begin.
On the other hand, those of us who would defend ourselves and our families would be in guerilla warfare mode ready to ambush and fight.
But wait, let me see how Zen put it:
I find it sad that your ideas to deal with any conflict and problems in the world involve violence—only violence, and lots of it. Be it burning down a newspaper, carpet-bombing entire countries, killing farmland pests...
Save your breath, Zen. Have you read the news about Rwanda genocide, Soviet Union, Paris, South America, Africa - murders and mayhem and - horrors! - violence.
This is not a non-violent world. And for those who think if we got along we would live in peace ... you will be the first ones they annihilate.
Only through strength is there peace ... and the United States is the most peaceful of all Nations striking back only when we have been attacked. Why do the hate-America-first libs not bring up atrocities that occur throughout the rest of the world?
"Killing farmland pests"? Sheesh. You really are a peacenik job. Groundhogs, for your information, dig holes - large holes - all over pastures and fields. Horses break legs in those holes, people break legs in those holes, other pests take up refuge in those holes.
Groundhogs once burrowed under the foundation of our farm house in NC and tore up the heating duct work. Because they had dug a hole under the house, skunks found their way into the crawl space ... and the groundhogs surprised them ... and we had skunk perfume in the middle of the night while my parents were visiting. Nice!
The barn on the NC farm had cats (as most barns do). The barn cat had kittens continuously ... but many didn't survive because the old tom cats would hunt them down and kill them. Dead kittens could be found at various locations around the farm.
So save it! Whether it's the "animal" world or "people" world, it's a jungle out there. The ones most prepared may survive with a little luck.
Your comments prove how soft this country has become.
Not in the news business? "Communications and media" are listed on your blog site....
Oh - and those WMDs that you called "Weapons of Mild Discomfort" that were found in Iraq, the ones with mustard and sarin gas - I found out today that sarin gas is 500 times more potent than anthrax. Yep - pretty mild stuff. Maybe we should store it in your garage, Zen.
Well, quite a lot there indeed. I went back and read the article in question, again, and now there are sidebars all along the article showing success stories from successful prosecutions using data gathered from the previously secret program. If you are still looking for proof of how the program has been compromised you should look to the fact as explained in the article that the number one fear that SWIFT had was public disclosure of the SECRET program and the ramifications that will follow, so only time will tell. But it once again is another tool in the war on terror exposed to the elements.
I again state that there is no reasoning, no negotiating with these islamic fundamental terrorists. The only method of communication that is effective with them is pure brute force. If you want to walk on a bridge of understanding then take a page right out of their books, namely the Quoraan (sp?) Non believers are to be converted, killed, or taken as slaves. That is it, no negotiation, no give, no take. That is what we are dealing with over there.
I don't think that being prepared to use deadly force makes me an emotionaly unstable person. Infact I think that it makes me pretty well grounded in reality. What scares me is the number of people that are so afraid of using force that they will give up the advantages we have in the intrest of people other than the USA. This kind of thinking is the very reason we went from manned silos to comuter controled silos. Alot of people just don't have the stomach to pull the trigger. Luckily, I do and an know our military does. The problem happens when people who don't have the ability to pull the trigger won't let the people who do have the ability do their job. I have yet to see anyone talk a terrorist to death. If you have proof of us talking a terrorist to death please let me know. It might change my life. I might become a politician to try the tactic. Would a bull horn help? Talking our enemies to death would be some feat!
Am I the only person that went to work today?
Just got home and checked the blog and found much to read and go over.
I continue to be amazed at the amount of effort that all of you put into your posts covering a “Broad” spectrum of the issues. Fortunately since not being caught up in the action as it happened I am able to read it from a different perspective…
SwacGirl: You put a lot of effort and feelings in your posts and have reminded me a lot of what has happened to the U.S. since 9/11 and how some have forgotten by choice or by complacency. I will let you in on a observation and I know this for I have seen Zen do this to me also. He is “pushing your buttons” for a reaction and will continue as long as you reply to his direction tactics. He is good at it and it is actually a valuable trait…
Bubba: Where do you come up with some of that stuff? I believe, as I know Zen also believes, you are not a gun nut that is looking for a reason to shoot, blow up, mangle, destroy, or eliminate all of those who disagrees with you if you could. Still I will avoid getting on your wrong side…
Zen: You play a good game and bring much to the table. We do not agree on some(?) topics but I believe it is beneficial for all involved or the effort would not be made in the very intense and lengthy replies by all…There are many blogs out there who get little if any replies posted and as intense as ours have been many other bloggers would have broken down to name calling, cursing, swearing, abuse, gunfire (Bubba), threats, etc by now and before 47 comments to a single post… I fear we sometimes associate each other member at times with the “stereotype” we believe applies to that member. This is easy to do and should be in check at times…
Now let me add some thoughts to issues brought up today. In regards to the “Violence” issue and I believe there was some “Tongue in Cheek” with the examples stated. Violence is not always the answer but the correct use of violence or the threat of violence is a important option and effective if used properly. To lump all violence as bad is foolish but to use it with no regard is also foolish. Interesting thing I heard this week. Canada has a new Prime Minister who wants to get rid of the gun registration program that has over a million guns registered owned by the citizens. This has enraged many for they feel without this gun control the crime rate will soar and anarchy will ensue. A interesting fact was also presented. With over 1 million guns registered by the law abiding public, criminals do not register their guns, only 1 registered gun was used in a homicide… Took a look into the “RightsideVA” library and found a book by John R. Lotts “More Guns, Less crime” that reports “In Virginia, not a single Virginia permit-holder (Concealed Weapons Permit) has been involved in violent crime” … There are numerous other examples of how more guns have resulted in less crime…
Bubba is correct when he states that the “Islamic fundamental terrorist” are not looking to negotiate with us but to only eliminate us when they can. I fear many have forgotten this and that is dangerous. It does amaze me that if this war on terrorism and the fight in Iraq & Afghanistan is wrong and based on “Lies” how is it that the military is so dedicated. Re-enlistment rates are up. Enlistment goals are being met. Wounded soldiers are doing whatever possible to rejoin their units. Where are the desertions? If it is so wrong why do they stay and volunteer to go back? Talk to those who have been there and ask what they think of their efforts and how their sacrifices are being portrayed by the media. Why do we see Cindy Sheehan protesting whenever possible surrounded by her handlers but never see her welcoming troops back at the airport when they arrive? That would be interesting to see…
Just for the record.....I don't want to kill people who disagree with my point of view. What I am sick of is dragging our feet in the war and pulling punches against these people. I think Zen said it best.....
"I am attempting to bridge a gap of understanding but have concluded—not from a lack of effort—that expecting to maintain a rational discussion with an irrational person is pretty fruitless."
A little out of context here but true none the less. The only people I want to erradicate are the terrorists, insurgents and those that are supporting them. Attempting to negotiate with the terrorists is truely fruitless.
Oh yeah, I'd like to erradicate the ground hog population in the field too.......the ground hog insurgency is out of control!
As I drink my morning coffee and check the news, not FOXNEWS for I can’s find the remote this morning, I see that Israel is not going to fold to the Palestines who have a captured soldier. In fact it seems Israel went out and got themselves a Palestinian Prime Minister and have told the Palestines that they will kil him if the Palestines kill the soldier. These guys are playing hardball here and I hope we never come to the same point but we must have somebody who will stand up to terrorist and say “If you push, we will push back harder”… Should we blame Israel for this situation? This has been a debate for very long and will continue to be. But I see that it is the Palestinians who go into Pizza Parlors and blow themselves up to kill the children of Israel. Does Israel have more military power and ability to fight greater then Palestine? Yes. And they have used great restraint after all the attacks from the terrorist. And yes they are terrorist…
Are we heavy handed in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the war on terror? I don’t think so for like Israel with the Gaza strip we could roll thru and eliminate the whole bunch in no time and then start over. But no, we have taken the harder road of starting a democracy and supporting a country as it grows out from under a dictator and terrorist in Saddam & the terrorist of Afghanistan…
Will it ever happen over here? I hope not and it would be in a different form and scale if it did. Imagine if terrorist started blowing themselves up in Wal*Marts all over the United States? What if they got away from the massive high profile terrorist acts like 9/11 and went more local and personal to downtown USA? By breaking up the bands of terrorists in Afghanistan & Iraq, and the training camps established and supported by countries who support terrorism, we have limited their ability to attack us in this manner. Our President went proactive and went after these sponsors of terrorism as I am sure Bill Clinton or any other President would have done in the same situation for the people of the U.S. would have demanded a reaction. Just not sure if Clinton would have continued the fight once the polls went down…
I fear the situation in the Gaza strip will get ugly. This will someday come to a boil and I believe if Israel had not shown strength with restraint in the past if would have been over already. Imagine if the Palestines had the military strength that Israel has? Would they have treated the Israel people with the same restraint? I think not and Arafat would have used the ability the first opportunity to eliminate all of Israel.
We must remain strong for history shows that negotiating with people like this has only limited success. When and if it ever gets ugly here I hope to be the neighbor of Bubba who is well practiced in the elimination of “Varmints” in the backyard….
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